Neon Nexus Neon Nexus Game 1 Postmortem

[Jon]

So, I'm putting this up to be left to discuss the things you all liked, disliked or think should be changed.

Don't worry about hurting my feelings. I want the tough criticisms to know where to look to make fixes.

I did already pick up on some CLEAR areas that need adjusting, and will address them, but by all means, thoughts would be welcome.

First, yes, the big elephant in the room was the Fixer role. I could have and SHOULD have restricted the amount of uses in a day for this role. But I had known already how badly I screwed up number 2 that I overcorrected for it. This role is going to be reworked some with restriction to uses. Probably the minimum sent is going to be increased too, to limit the intensity.

Second, the Genetic Engineer. First, I LOVED the role. It did what I envisioned.... just WAY too powered up. This role is going to get toned down a quite a bit. The amount of and phases this can be applied have to be restricted. I don't mind the presence of multiple poisons and the random chance of cascading, but I will either change this to day phase only, so that the corpo can't poison and set it off same night, or, I will open the risk that it kills a corpo too. Open to recommendations here, of course.

Third, resources. Yes, these are going to catch some flak, but, I like them. i will be keeping them. However, they need a little more clarification on use cases. The other part of it I questioned: should resource changes (outside secret ones like the Fixer) be public? What do you all think about resources overall and how can they be made better? Any roles felt restricted by them? Overpowered by them?

Lastly, i intend later game to have alliances and negotiations. Resources are supposed to be something more intense. I need to work out how the trade system can work overall, but any ideas will be welcome.

Ok, ya'll, let me have it.

 

[Jon]

@TD
@Tommy Boy
@Alu
@canadaguy
@Zell 17
@Local Hero
@shortkut
@GwJumpman
@Jawneh
@Tubby23
@Fool's Requiem
@Raine
@Dean
@Benzine
@Smacktard

Tagging participants. And @VashTheStampede if you have stuff to add, and anyone else, please feel free.

 

[Dean]

I felt like my role was the equivalent of Farmer in Wolf.

 

[Tubby23]

Hard to say where any other balance issues lie (if any) outside of what you had mentioned.

On initial read of my role I didn't realise I could use my resources in an unlimited fashion on Day 1 and only once Kelly asked did I think of it. I think limiting that is obviously needed.

I think trading resources in thread is perfectly fine and only those roles that currently do it via PM should be private. At least until we see a full game play out

 

[GwJumpman]

Some things I think may be worthwhile:

Fixer must send 5 credits each check

Genetic guy setting spores goes AFTER night kill so can't just double kill every night like that

 

[GwJumpman]

Also spores during both day and night every day does seem kind of strong

 

[Tubby23]

I disagree on the 5 credits, I'd say 2 so that they can effectively act as a Seer over 5 days. Once per day can send a minimum of 2 respurces

 

[GwJumpman]

Make the transaction one per day and I agree with 2 credits

 

[shortkut]

I disagree on the 5 credits, I'd say 2 so that they can effectively act as a Seer over 5 days. Once per day can send a minimum of 2 respurces

Or 5 credits, full refund if they find an enemy of the town

 

[shortkut]

Or 5 credits, full refund if they find an enemy of the town

This way, it actually encourages sharing of resources

 

[Tubby23]

This way, it actually encourages sharing of resources

Yeah I suppose rather than lost resource and a fail message you get the fail message and a refund

 

[shortkut]

Yeah I suppose rather than lost resource and a fail message you get the fail message and a refund

The alternative I mentioned in the corpo chat, would be if the fixer can send as little as 1 or 2, they need to wait until the next business day to get results

 

[GwJumpman]

I like the refund a lot and it makes sense with what you're trying to do (send something to someone). If it fails, the transfer doesn't happen

 

[shortkut]

I like the refund a lot and it makes sense with what you're trying to do (send something to someone). If it fails, the transfer doesn't happen

Unless he is sending crypto, then it’s lost forever

 

[Tubby23]

Yeah at the moment it doesn't happen and the resource is lost (which I'm also cool with) just a once per day and some limit of minimum resource sent would be good.

 

[shortkut]

Side note: I like that @Jon tried to emulate @VashTheStampede ’s mafia by adding a shortkut role, I just don’t like that it was a money lender role. Should I be offended?

 

[Local Hero]

What about open trading of resources?. Anyone can share with anyone. On a trust, or vibes basis.

 

[Tubby23]

What about open trading of resources?. Anyone can share with anyone. On a trust, or vibes basis.

Doesn't that already exist?

 

[shortkut]

What about open trading of resources?. Anyone can share with anyone. On a trust, or vibes basis.

I think that already exists if you do it publicly

 

[Tubby23]

Also @Jon and @Mark could everyone not already in there have dead thread access please

 

[Mark]

Also @Jon and @Mark could everyone not already in there have dead thread access please

Oops. Kinda forgot to tell Jon the part about letting me know when a game ends so I can unlock the forum.

 

[Tubby23]

Oops. Kinda forgot to tell Jon the part about letting me know when a game ends so I can unlock the forum.

 

[Mark]

Look, while you had a boo-boo, we had both Kat AND Jon step up to fill YOUR SHOES, SIR. Excuuuse us, not everyone can be as professional as you.

 

[A Maybe Baker]

I really like the concept of the game and want you to continue with it.

Definitely update the fixer and the genetic scientist to be much less broken. Maybe a way to take out the SK role Local had in 2 kills instead of 3 in a specific scenario? I feel like that alone makes it start as 7-11 for evils and goods, with the potential to get it down to 8 or 9 on the first day before voting ends.

 

[Mark]

I really like the concept of the game and want you to continue with it.

He ain’t allowed to quit it now, he has a prefix and it’s a term of his internshit.

 

[A Maybe Baker]

Genetic Scientist:

Sets during the day phase, can't reset until the target they set has been killed. That means if that target is somehow protected, or unfortunately the 3 kill one, it'll take at least another night for it to happen.

That might still be overpowered, with usually hitting 2 kills per night starting on the second night. Maybe make it possible to save from the spores with a protect if the RNG hits someone who is protected?

 

[Jon]

I felt like my role was the equivalent of Farmer in Wolf.

I tried to avoid this precise thing. I know WHY roles like farmer exist, but I personally didn't want any of that in my game. I wanted to avoid any roles that couldn't do ANYTHING. But, yes, Brainhacker is one of the weaker roles. Its purpose is that there's a lot of obfuscation in my game. I needed some roles to get around those on some level. The Brainhack is a role that obfuscates AND reveals. But it also helps get around the resources on kill part of the game. It's not quite useless, but its use case is limited. Ideas on how to improve it?

Or 5 credits, full refund if they find an enemy of the town

I kind of like this. I tried to build a LITTLE into the role with the refund if the credits are used as part of a town kill. The idea with resources is to prevent unlimited use of the abilities without making alliances and trades. However, something like this is both a positive and a penalty for getting wrong.

I wanted to avoid a lot of "you die if you fail" roles. There are only 2. But I do think that roles SHOULD have a drawback for a failure. This feels like a fair application.

Side note: I like that @Jon tried to emulate @VashTheStampede ’s mafia by adding a shortkut role, I just don’t like that it was a money lender role. Should I be offended?

LOL! I swear I didn't do anything intentionally like that.

What about open trading of resources?. Anyone can share with anyone. On a trust, or vibes basis.

This is indeed already a part of resources. The idea was that you would find alliances and find unique ways to work together. It was one of the things I most looked forward to seeing. Obviously that part failed, but I wanted resources to be a limiting factor but also ways to work together.

Mark mentioned to me an actually cool idea I'm going to try to work into the next version of the game as well where we may have... NPCs of a sort. For those unable to play fully or even those that are around for the games but don't participate in them, like Mark, Christina or Crystal. Resources feel like a great way to do that, but I'm not sure logistically yet how I'll do it. I'm trying to think of ways to make it like... Side Quests of a sort.

 

[Jon]

I really like the concept of the game and want you to continue with it.

Definitely update the fixer and the genetic scientist to be much less broken. Maybe a way to take out the SK role Local had in 2 kills instead of 3 in a specific scenario? I feel like that alone makes it start as 7-11 for evils and goods, with the potential to get it down to 8 or 9 on the first day before voting ends.

I appreciate it. I definitely don't play to quit on it. But I'll take some time to tweak this for sure. With Zell and Tubby locked in for games, I'm glad to have a couple weeks at least to tweak things. I'm also secretly hoping year 3 of mafia happens after Tubby too. It'll be some time in the new year, I think, as I am definitely not at the point of being able to throw a quick one together like Zell.

The Cyberpsycho was definitely powerful. I think I will definitely try 2 hits and see how that goes. I felt with only a singular day kill, he may have been too weak, but it is what directly led to his win. So, this feels fair.

He ain’t allowed to quit it now, he has a prefix and it’s a term of his internshit.

I'm enjoying this intershit.

Genetic Scientist:

Sets during the day phase, can't reset until the target they set has been killed. That means if that target is somehow protected, or unfortunately the 3 kill one, it'll take at least another night for it to happen.

That might still be overpowered, with usually hitting 2 kills per night starting on the second night. Maybe make it possible to save from the spores with a protect if the RNG hits someone who is protected?

I definitely want to make sure there is a level of drawback for each role on some level. With the Genetic Engineer, blocks are definitely possible, we just didn't have any. I kinda like the day set idea only because you have to wait for night time to set one off, or strategically leave it alone and try to build more into a possible cascade.

The other part on something that happened in this game is some roles may have natural immunity. Like when CG was killed, he was the Android Assassin... that has no blood... how was he actually affected? So perhaps some roles have natural immunity. Things like that. I think changing it back to possibly killing corpos may also be somewhat a deterrent that may tone it back a little.

I think the GE needs the most tuning because its presence may the other corpo roles useless. First comment in corpo chat was how useless the other roles were and their resources need to be spent on the GE. Not intended.

 

[TD]

I'll give this a deep dive later. At first glance there's a lot of overpowered stuff that should either be daily or limited use in general.

 

[shortkut]

I think the GE needs the most tuning because its presence may the other corpo roles useless. First comment in corpo chat was how useless the other roles were and their resources need to be spent on the GE. Not intended.

But if the GE is not a guaranteed role, then if he’s not around the other roles might get used

 

[Jon]

But if the GE is not a guaranteed role, then if he’s not around the other roles might get used

Correct, but I don't want the other roles to feel useless either. Resources were DEFINITELY not a problem for Corpo. The nightly kills refunded enough often to make up for it. So if we make the corpo roles useful, or tone down the GE, the other roles can flourish.

 

[shortkut]

Correct, but I don't want the other roles to feel useless either. Resources were DEFINITELY not a problem for Corpo. The nightly kills refunded enough often to make up for it. So if we make the corpo roles useful, or tone down the GE, the other roles can flourish.

You could make the GE ability cost 25-30 per use. That means everyone has to pool their resources and they need successful kills to use it multiple times

 

[Jon]

You could make the GE ability cost 25-30 per use. That means everyone has to pool their resources and they need successful kills to use it multiple times

Yes, something else I'm considering. Currently only the Corpo Spy Assassin got the "your starting resources are less than your ability" treatment. I was saving that for very powerful abilities, but seeing the GE, it is definitely worthy of that. We didn't get a spy assassin, so I don't know for sure if that one is going to be underpowered as a result. The GE and spy assassin draw would be powerful... but also resource intensive.

 

[A Maybe Baker]

You could make the GE ability cost 25-30 per use. That means everyone has to pool their resources and they need successful kills to use it multiple times

Oh yeah - this is a good one. Maybe make it 20 though? That would be the maximum return you could get on a nightly basis if it worked out perfectly. But then again, that might be a good reason to make the number higher.

 

[Kat]

Third, resources. Yes, these are going to catch some flak, but, I like them. i will be keeping them.

I like the resource idea! Instead of a role being limited to so many uses, and sometimes having an ability which just isn't useful in the circumstances, it allows flexibility. I think the resource trading could be super interesting. Somebody claims to be Fixer and wants some resources to check more people - do you give it?

Fixer role. I could have and SHOULD have restricted the amount of uses in a day for this role. But I had known already how badly I screwed up number 2 that I overcorrected for it. This role is going to be reworked some with restriction to uses. Probably the minimum sent is going to be increased too, to limit the intensity.

I'd set minimum to five resources and you can't do any more transactions that day if a transfer is successful. Failed transfers don't cost anything. You said you wanted the lost resources to be a penalty for failing, but a failed transfer is the most useful case for the fixer. If they just want to transfer stuff to a citizen, they can do it in the thread.

Some people suggested to lower the limit so the fixer can have more uses, but IMO that's not necessary since resources can be traded.

I don't mind the presence of multiple poisons and the random chance of cascading, but I will either change this to day phase only, so that the corpo can't poison and set it off same night, or, I will open the risk that it kills a corpo too. Open to recommendations here, of course.

I like the idea of poison possibly cascading. What if it takes some time for the poison to set in? So poisoning then immediately killing somebody has no benefit.

I don't like the idea of it possibly killing a corpo. I think it won't get used much if that's the case, unless maybe it's a weighted chance so it's less likely to hit corpo. It also doesn't make sense narratively: why would they assist someone they poisoned, especially someone they killed?

With Zell and Tubby locked in for games, I'm glad to have a couple weeks at least to tweak things

Not with the way games have been going lately!

 

[Kat]

I meant to add something about whether trades should be public. I think public trades are fine to have as an option, but private trades would be useful. Maybe people can make private requests for resources to specific people through you? It'd be allowed to out someone for their request, which opens the door for lying about requests. Requests going through you means you can police what messages people are sending privately (you probably want to allow people to say why they're requesting resources), to prevent it from being abused as a way to PM about the game.

You'll probably have to play with the resource trading system a bit to get it dialed in, but I bet it'll be a lot of fun when you do.

I'm excited for your next game.

 

[Jon]

I like the resource idea! Instead of a role being limited to so many uses, and sometimes having an ability which just isn't useful in the circumstances, it allows flexibility. I think the resource trading could be super interesting. Somebody claims to be Fixer and wants some resources to check more people - do you give it?

I'm glad! And yes, these politics are something I'm coining a bit from EDH/Commander in MTG. Do you make a deal with the devil and risk it all for that one moment of glory? But, yes, it's a way to try to keep even the least useful roles enganged.

I'd set minimum to five resources and you can't do any more transactions that day if a transfer is successful. Failed transfers don't cost anything. You said you wanted the lost resources to be a penalty for failing, but a failed transfer is the most useful case for the fixer. If they just want to transfer stuff to a citizen, they can do it in the thread.

Some people suggested to lower the limit so the fixer can have more uses, but IMO that's not necessary since resources can be traded.

I agree lowering the resource cost is not necessary. I think increasing and potentially locking at 5 may be the right move. I never thought, though that a failed transfer is actually more useful. That's an interesting thought. One thing Kut has suggested is to have the transfer take a day. I think this may be an interesting addition. Mainly because I like the idea the Fixer is the only role that can hide transactions. So perhaps an amalgamation of all of this and lock the resources at five, limit the number of transactions and perhaps even making so that the transfer request is during the day and the actual result is at night. Or some combination.

The more I think about it, the delay defeats the purpose of it being a somewhat seer role. So maybe I change it to night? I'm not positive yet.

I like the idea of poison possibly cascading. What if it takes some time for the poison to set in? So poisoning then immediately killing somebody has no benefit.

I don't like the idea of it possibly killing a corpo. I think it won't get used much if that's the case, unless maybe it's a weighted chance so it's less likely to hit corpo. It also doesn't make sense narratively: why would they assist someone they poisoned, especially someone they killed?

I think that's the idea with poison. I think it was in another thread, but I really liked (I think it was Kut again; but possibly Alu), that poison is applied during the day for a cost, but Corpo can forego their nightly kill and poison another target at no cost. I thought that was a great creative workaround.

And my response was that would prevent me from needing to use the kill a corpo drawback, which I am against.

Not with the way games have been going lately!

LOL! That's sadly accurate!

Though I think we'd need to rely on Zell's quick turnarounds. I'll definitely need a bit of time to tweak.

 

[Kat]

Mainly because I like the idea the Fixer is the only role that can hide transactions.

I don't see how that's useful, personally. Maybe in some very niche cases where someone has a powerful role and is out of resources and that's publicly known? But I don't see that as being the main function of the role. It's most useful as a seer.

 

[Jon]

I meant to add something about whether trades should be public. I think public trades are fine to have as an option, but private trades would be useful. Maybe people can make private requests for resources to specific people through you? It'd be allowed to out someone for their request, which opens the door for lying about requests. Requests going through you means you can police what messages people are sending privately (you probably want to allow people to say why they're requesting resources), to prevent it from being abused as a way to PM about the game.

You'll probably have to play with the resource trading system a bit to get it dialed in, but I bet it'll be a lot of fun when you do.

I'm excited for your next game.

My only concern with that is it already puts me more into the game than I really want to be as a game master. I already have quite a few role where I need to be an intermediary, and there isn't a more effective way to do it than through DMs, which was already a lot to manage. Definitely something to consider, the idea of public negotiations was something I wanted to see in action because it comes down to trust and feel. Are you handing the corpo the resources they need to kill you? That sort of thing.

The main question about resources to me is, should that be something that is tracked, or do I let everyone be their own mathematician? I am already tracking because I have to. Do I announce resources as part of the kill feeds? I tried to announce in DMs how many people had left as I went, but each kill was awarding resources. Should those be announced? Part of me like the idea of everyone tracking themselves as it also leaves deduction mystery out there.

 

[Jon]

I don't see how that's useful, personally. Maybe in some very niche cases where someone has a powerful role and is out of resources and that's publicly known? But I don't see that as being the main function of the role. It's most useful as a seer.

You aren't wrong. I do see your point, though. I will need to think more on it.

There is also a role that allows the player to see resources. It's one of the weaker roles, but part of me feels they are preemptory to resources being a bigger part of the game at some point.

 

[Kat]

I agree, private trades would be a lot of extra work.

I need to look into writing forum mods so we can add some features to make running these games easier.

 

[Jon]

That would be amazing

 

[finlandguy]

tl;dr everyone's posts yet.

For fixer, obviously the already mentioned nerf. Idk if it would be neat to add a bit of risk for it. When the fixer send doubloons to corpo, they could learn who it is. Maybe this also means the fixer needs some buff to resources or how trading works. Just an idea.

 

[shortkut]

tl;dr everyone's posts yet.

For fixer, obviously the already mentioned nerf. Idk if it would be neat to add a bit of risk for it. When the fixer send doubloons to corpo, they could learn who it is. Maybe this also means the fixer needs some buff to resources or how trading works. Just an idea.

That’s interesting, rather than only a nerf, put in some risk of blindly sending resources. Biggest issue is that means the fixer as a seer can only find one person before they know who he is and probably kill him

 

[finlandguy]

That’s interesting, rather than only a nerf, put in some risk of blindly sending resources. Biggest issue is that means the fixer as a seer can only find one person before they know who he is and probably kill him

This would be interesting too if corpo is claiming thr fixer as they can say they found someone and then also ask for protection or they will probably die.

If there's this risk, maybe allow two checks per day? Or give bonus resources to the recipient instead of the straight whatever amount. It's hard to tell yet how important it will be for a fixer to share resources around so idk how much I value them yet.